Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Rotation Advertisements



We hope you enjoy your visit to this forum.


If you are reading this then it means you are currently browsing the forum as a guest, we don’t limit any of the content posted from guests however if you join, you will have the ability to join the discussions! We are always happy to see new faces at this forum and we would like to hear your opinion, so why not register now? It doesn’t take long and you can get posting right away.


Click here to Register!

If you are having difficulties validating your account please email us at admin@dbzf.co.uk


If you're already a member please log in to your account:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
  • Pages:
  • 1
Debating Mistakes and Terminology; we've all made them at some point.
Topic Started: Jun 23 2015, 04:20 AM (3,439 Views)
Tinny
Member Avatar


You know why you're here most likely, you want to either ask who would win in battle, or answer who would win.
In both I've seen a few mistakes, often made by new comers who, while having their heart in the right place, have made some mistakes, which I will show and try to showcase some methods to avoid.

First of all,"The character you side with does not win every fight"
This is fine, even good, as talking about an invincible character is boring when discussing who wins a fight. Keep this in mind, if nothing else.
And without further ado.
THE HERCULE EFFECT
So named for fighter Hercule, or Mr. Satan, who while being quite weak in the grand scheme of things, is thought by the populace of Earth to be stronger than both Cell and Buu. A clear example of the hype of a character being more powerful than the actual character, though this is in universe.
Examples of the Hercule effect are people like Broly or Batman, who while very powerful in their own right, are still overhyped to an insane degree. Broly is said to be more powerful than Beerus despite there being no evidence of such power in there, suppressed or otherwise. Batman on the other hand is said to be able to take down Superman despite having in all actuality a very poor record against him in both post crisis and New 52. Both are hyped past their abilities. Characters you like or even idolize are particularly susceptible to this.

In addition there are also numerous cases of people underestimating someone, this what I like to call
THE KRILLIN EFFECT
This is when a character is more powerful then the general perception, usually because their showings are quite weak, like with one of the best examples: Krillin. He is the strongest human alive, but is often thought of as quite a weak fighter, with nothing going for him in a fight. This is because while he certainly has become stronger, the villains in each new arc are far more powerful, and as such he's usually not perceived as the master that he is.
In addition to Krillin and Dan are also examples of the Krillin effect. both being quite accomplished despite not being thought of as such. Krillin is thought of as incompetent but is often fighting aliens that could annihilate most of humanity without suffering a single injury. Dan is thought of as a fighter who knows nothing about fighting, but actually invented his own style, can shoot fire out of his hands, and can give lectures on chi, showing that he's actually quite a good fighter, he's just stuck in the street fighter universe where all the other playable characters are superior to him. Characters that are outclassed often are on the receiving end of this



There are plenty of ways to mitigate these mistakes however:
When trying to choose an opponent, check if perhaps they have a respect thread on them. Respect threads are an oddity in Other versus as they are not actually threads about X vs Y but about the power an individual or group has. They are trustworthy and back up their claims on what a character can do with official material, usually either passages from a book, or scans from a comic showcasing them performing the exact feat they are talking about. These will give you a good indicator on what a character can do at maximum, as they often show the high points of a character, such as Doctor Doom resisting a force of mind control that has successfully taken over all of Earth.
If a respect thread is not available, and even if it is, you should do a little bit of research on the characters you are pitting against each other. Even a simple search on google can often net enough information to help you to understand if the characters are a good match for each other.
If you can, take a look at the source material of the character to see exactly what their feats are, it's arguably the best source of information you get, though it may be hard to find or watch in it's entirety.
Prepare to be wrong, you will not always have the correct answer, and perhaps someone may prove more knowledgeable than you on a matter. Discovery is a reward, even when it breaks preconceptions.
Prepare to defend your statements, if you say X wins in a fight against Y, people will want to know why. Even if you think it is obvious, it is still better to explain your position in the same post you state them, in order to add to the conversation. Without it all people can really do is ask why you hold the position. By defending your position you allow others to critique it, hopefully giving you new information in the process, and debating can usually be a reward in itself.
Do not be afraid to ask a question if you do not think you are knowledgeable enough to answer the opening post correctly. It is very likely that the OP will come down him/herself to inform you about the character, and from there you can form a position to take. Ask and you shall receive.

There is also a tendency to make assumptions in debates about a character's power via factors like how they're presented and treated in the context of the story, you should in general work to avoid this and rely solely on objective feats that have happened and have been stated in the story. And while we appreciate the effort, please do not try to make calculations based on what happens just on a page, this actually has a name on here, lolcals. lolcals are more or less drawing assumptions and using physics or other sciences to determine the capabilities of a character, this is often done with Dragon Ball characters, as they usually lack directly stated feats like how much they lift in each form. For example, one often brought up is that Goku is light speed based on how it seems instantaneous when Goku goes to Roshi, picks up his sun glasses, uses them to avoid the effects of Tien's solar flare, and then punches him. While it looks good on paper, it brings a lot of questions up, like where did all that speed go in Z? Why did it take piccolo some time to catch up to Gotenks? And how does Gohan barely get to school on time despite rushing? If they are light speed, why is distance a concern? This is often the issue with lolcals.
In fact they had become such a problem that there is a rule in place expressly forbidding calculations like this, and alluding to calculations. Please save yourself some time, and keep the calculations to numbers established in the story.

In addition, I would like to talk about what I call
THE GOKU VS SUPERMAN EFFECT
So named for the famous debate on the internet, this is not so much mistakes that create a silly match up, or a premature conclusion, as one that poisons a discussion, and I feel is something to address, this may feel a bit silly to say, but it still needs saying.

Just because a character loses, does not mean that the character is a worse one. Just because you like a character, does not mean s/he is the better fighter. Do not take offence when someone says that X stomps a character you like, if you do not believe this is the case, calmly and reasonably debate them, vocalize your disagreement, but do it civilly. If you take to name calling, insults, and other theatrics, you will help no one, and all you will do is poison the discussion, and make the character you support look bad by association.

In the end a character's relative strength to another, likely outside of their universe, has no bearing on their achievements in universe, even though Goku lost to Beerus, he is still an amazing fighter and a wonderful character.

In the spoiler tag below is also a handy list of frequently used terminology

Spoiler: click to toggle

And of course, have fun debating ^_^
Edited by Copy_Ninja, Feb 14 2016, 10:07 PM.
Posted Image
Above signature created by Graffiti

Posted Image
Member Online View Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
DSTREET45
Member Avatar


This should be pinned. Good work.
Posted Image
Member Offline View Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Tinny
Member Avatar


DSTREET45
Jun 23 2015, 06:10 PM
This should be pinned. Good work.
Thank you, I'm honestly a bit proud of it really. It's just I keep seeing it happen, so I thought this would be useful to keep in mind.
Posted Image
Above signature created by Graffiti

Posted Image
Member Online View Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
lazerbem
Member Avatar


Going to pin it because it really is helpful
Posted Image
Crazy cat cults in the woods
Member Online View Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Darker
Member Avatar
The Lord of the Dark

I second that. This thread is great. It will really help the newcomers that start putting X character against Y character.
Posted Image

Piccolo: Just how many people have you sacrificed?!

Cell: Sacrifice? Hmph, rubbish! On the contrary, it is an honor to become a fraction of my power.
Member Online View Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
+ Steve
Member Avatar
Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.

I'd like to put forward the TROLOLOLOL EFFECT

Where people state X character is MFTL or whatever based on their opinion not actual fact or evidence, somewhat similar to the Goku vs Superman effect but more specifically how they don't add any information, reasoning or other discussion to their post besides "X character stomps" and repeating that over and over sometimes adding words like "blitz" or "buster"

In addition to that a refusal to listen to the other side of the story and look up any information on their characters strength.

Such as when a character has the absolute power to destroy anything immediately responding with "X character tanks it easily he has tanked X before"

A sub category of the Superman vs Goku effect I suppose.


Adapt this however you want to the OP if you wish, I feel people certainly need to know this part :p


Also I think something important should go at the top of this topic, for people who will refuse to read so many words.

And that is:

"The character you side with does not win every fight"


I think that's pretty much the main thing people get wrong so they should learn that first :lol:
Posted Image


Definitely not a succubus, fear not
Member Offline View Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Tinny
Member Avatar


Steve
Jun 23 2015, 11:43 PM
Also I think something important should go at the top of this topic, for people who will refuse to read so many words.

And that is:

"The character you side with does not win every fight"


I think that's pretty much the main thing people get wrong so they should learn that first :lol:
I'll amend it to include that last quote, it's good to keep in mind.
And admittedly, I figured that fit under the Goku vs Superman effect, and in addition I figure if they're pulling that, they're not really interested in a debate in the first place, I mean heck, trololol effect is the name.
Quote:
 
Going to pin it because it really is helpful

Quote:
 
I second that. This thread is great. It will really help the newcomers that start putting X character against Y character.

Stop it you're making me blush. :blush:
Posted Image
Above signature created by Graffiti

Posted Image
Member Online View Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
+ Pyrus
Member Avatar


The Hercule Effect seems to be in use for a lot of DBZ vs Other debates.

I really do dislike the Krillin Effect. I understand not liking a character or even finding them unimpressive/being indifferent to them, but shrugging them off as pathetic simply because they're surrounded by people thousands of times stronger doesn't mean they're pathetic in the specific battle being debated.
Spoiler: click to toggle
Member Online View Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Tinny
Member Avatar


Pyrus
Jun 24 2015, 12:36 AM
The Hercule Effect seems to be in use for a lot of DBZ vs Other debates.

I really do dislike the Krillin Effect. I understand not liking a character or even finding them unimpressive/being indifferent to them, but shrugging them off as pathetic simply because they're surrounded by people thousands of times stronger doesn't mean they're pathetic in the specific battle being debated.
Understandably so, with the site we're on.

As for the Krillin effect, it's mostly got to do with a lack of comparable fighters to show that he's actually good. Which is kind of what happened to Krillin, all these aliens that destroy planets, it makes him seem... Inadequate. It's a trap that's easy to fall into really.
Posted Image
Above signature created by Graffiti

Posted Image
Member Online View Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Darker
Member Avatar
The Lord of the Dark

Steve
Jun 23 2015, 11:43 PM
Also I think something important should go at the top of this topic, for people who will refuse to read so many words.

And that is:

"The character you side with does not win every fight"
Or maybe he does. :rofl:
Posted Image

Piccolo: Just how many people have you sacrificed?!

Cell: Sacrifice? Hmph, rubbish! On the contrary, it is an honor to become a fraction of my power.
Member Online View Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Dankness Lava
Member Avatar
Dankness Forever

Darker
Jan 11 2016, 09:30 AM
Steve
Jun 23 2015, 11:43 PM
Also I think something important should go at the top of this topic, for people who will refuse to read so many words.

And that is:

"The character you side with does not win every fight"
Or maybe he does. :rofl:


If he actually does, putting him in a versus thread is dumb honestly.
Posted Image
Member Online View Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Darker
Member Avatar
The Lord of the Dark

Magma Crater
Jan 24 2016, 01:48 PM
Darker
Jan 11 2016, 09:30 AM
Steve
Jun 23 2015, 11:43 PM
Also I think something important should go at the top of this topic, for people who will refuse to read so many words.

And that is:

"The character you side with does not win every fight"
Or maybe he does. :rofl:

If he actually does, putting him in a versus thread is dumb honestly.
It's more of a "X character wins cause arguments" rather than a "I put Z character vs X character but I know X character will win" thing, you know?
Posted Image

Piccolo: Just how many people have you sacrificed?!

Cell: Sacrifice? Hmph, rubbish! On the contrary, it is an honor to become a fraction of my power.
Member Online View Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Dankness Lava
Member Avatar
Dankness Forever

That makes sense. Just woke up when i wrote that so ignore me :rofl:
Posted Image
Member Online View Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
+ Pointer
Member Avatar
...

but batman defeated superman, not by force but he planned a worst case scenario if the justice league would ever turn to insane. he used some kryptonite bullet or whatever to overpower supes

Posted Image
Member Offline View Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Darker
Member Avatar
The Lord of the Dark

Pretty sure that's not what happened. Superman rarely gets hit by bullets, he's always been faster than those.
And Batman's prep plans usually fail. And sometimes they get him killed.

I don't understand why you posted that here. Batman has beaten Superman a few times, so what? Superman has won the majority of the fights, and he was always holding back.
Posted Image

Piccolo: Just how many people have you sacrificed?!

Cell: Sacrifice? Hmph, rubbish! On the contrary, it is an honor to become a fraction of my power.
Member Online View Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
0 users reading this topic
ZetaBoards - Free Forum Hosting
Create your own social network with a free forum.
Learn More · Sign-up Now
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Other Versus · Next Topic »
Add Reply
  • Pages:
  • 1

Theme Designed by McKee91